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Syed Akbar, Capt. Sudhir & Adi...
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Capt Sudhir said...
Capt Sudhir said...
adi said...
Capt Sudhir said...
adi said...
Syed Akbar, Capt. Sudhir & Adi...
We all evolved from a single cell. Nobody "created" us as a complete woman or man. The earth is more than 4.3 billion years old.
There are enough empirical evidence for this.
Every person on Earth shares 99.9% of the same genetic code; only 0.1% of our genetic make-up differs.
Mouse and man share 99% genetic similarity - including the genes to make a tail. Humans and mice shared a common ancestor about 100 million years ago. A mouse has about the same number of genes as a man. Due to preserved genetic similarities, even after 530 million years of separation, introduced human genes can operate within the Fruit Fly genome.
The nematode worm shares many genes with human beings, including the genes to make muscle. Puffer fish and Zebra fish are so genetically similar to human beings that their genomes are being deciphered as ‘model’ organisms for research.
The California purple sea urchin (Strongylocentrotus purpuratus) genome has 23,300 genes, of which 7077 are shared with human beings.
The dog genome also reveals many shared genes and diseases with humans; about 94% of the dog genome shows conserved synteny with mice, rats and humans.
Birds and human beings have three very similar genes affecting blunt limb buds.
Genetic similarity between humans and chimpanzees is between 96% and 99.4%
‘LUCA’, the ‘Last Universal Common Ancestor’ existed around four billion years ago.
We are probably descended from a mud-burrowing worm.
The common ancestor of all placental mammals was probably a small nocturnal shrew-like creature, snuffling about more than 80 million years ago.
Dogs, goldfish, and ferns have more chromosomes than human beings.
75% of our genetic make-up is the same as a pumpkin - 57% the same as a cabbage.
The split between plants and animals occurred about 1.6 billion years ago.
Around 100 genes in flowering plant Arabidopsis thaliana (Thale Cress) are closely related to human disease genes; and Arabidopsis has most of its genes in common with all other plants on Earth.
Source - Nature magazine, 2003.
Isn't it time for us to think scientifically, i.e. to question everything? Ideas that cannot be proven empirically and don't make sense must be treated as fairy tales. Good for children, bad for adults and certainly NOT to be used for running a country.
There are enough empirical evidence for this.
Every person on Earth shares 99.9% of the same genetic code; only 0.1% of our genetic make-up differs.
Mouse and man share 99% genetic similarity - including the genes to make a tail. Humans and mice shared a common ancestor about 100 million years ago. A mouse has about the same number of genes as a man. Due to preserved genetic similarities, even after 530 million years of separation, introduced human genes can operate within the Fruit Fly genome.
The nematode worm shares many genes with human beings, including the genes to make muscle. Puffer fish and Zebra fish are so genetically similar to human beings that their genomes are being deciphered as ‘model’ organisms for research.
The California purple sea urchin (Strongylocentrotus purpuratus) genome has 23,300 genes, of which 7077 are shared with human beings.
The dog genome also reveals many shared genes and diseases with humans; about 94% of the dog genome shows conserved synteny with mice, rats and humans.
Birds and human beings have three very similar genes affecting blunt limb buds.
Genetic similarity between humans and chimpanzees is between 96% and 99.4%
‘LUCA’, the ‘Last Universal Common Ancestor’ existed around four billion years ago.
We are probably descended from a mud-burrowing worm.
The common ancestor of all placental mammals was probably a small nocturnal shrew-like creature, snuffling about more than 80 million years ago.
Dogs, goldfish, and ferns have more chromosomes than human beings.
75% of our genetic make-up is the same as a pumpkin - 57% the same as a cabbage.
The split between plants and animals occurred about 1.6 billion years ago.
Around 100 genes in flowering plant Arabidopsis thaliana (Thale Cress) are closely related to human disease genes; and Arabidopsis has most of its genes in common with all other plants on Earth.
Source - Nature magazine, 2003.
Isn't it time for us to think scientifically, i.e. to question everything? Ideas that cannot be proven empirically and don't make sense must be treated as fairy tales. Good for children, bad for adults and certainly NOT to be used for running a country.
Bro Syed, the ultimate common ancestor is the single cell. That cell replicated itself through a form of bio-chemical action, (sorry no sex as the Mullahs think was involved.)The cause might go all the way to the point when this universe came into existence 13++ billion years ago.
There is no outside cause except the cause itself. So consciousness is encapsulated in the universe just as it is encapsulated in all of us even in this human form.
That consciousness will also be encapsulated as we evolve. If you want to give IT a name that is fine.
But IT is not something outside.
The cause of the universe lies inside us, not outside.
...Certainly not in any Paradise with 72 virgins :-)
Now the strange think that most people seem to miss is the empirical proof that there is NO such thing as RACE when it comes to genetics and DNA of human beings. The difference of 0.1% is a story of our evolution. It cuts across all so called "races". (wonder what the Ketuanan guys make out of this?)
"All scientific signs point to the conclusion that race doesn't exist. The further scientists go in sequencing the genome - the complete catalogue of the genetic material found in every human cell - the more they realize there is no biological basis for our most contentious and divisive of social categories." - Eric Sorensen
Seattle Times science reporter Feb 11 2001.
BTW there is also no such think as an Islamic gene, Christian gene or Hindu gene as well... :-)
There is no outside cause except the cause itself. So consciousness is encapsulated in the universe just as it is encapsulated in all of us even in this human form.
That consciousness will also be encapsulated as we evolve. If you want to give IT a name that is fine.
But IT is not something outside.
The cause of the universe lies inside us, not outside.
...Certainly not in any Paradise with 72 virgins :-)
Now the strange think that most people seem to miss is the empirical proof that there is NO such thing as RACE when it comes to genetics and DNA of human beings. The difference of 0.1% is a story of our evolution. It cuts across all so called "races". (wonder what the Ketuanan guys make out of this?)
"All scientific signs point to the conclusion that race doesn't exist. The further scientists go in sequencing the genome - the complete catalogue of the genetic material found in every human cell - the more they realize there is no biological basis for our most contentious and divisive of social categories." - Eric Sorensen
Seattle Times science reporter Feb 11 2001.
BTW there is also no such think as an Islamic gene, Christian gene or Hindu gene as well... :-)
Capt Sudhir hasn't watch Jurassic Park. That's why he is oblivious of the female precedence.
Sorry Capt Sudhir, you posted some facts but you have absolutely no argument whatsoever against a "creator".
You want to talk about empirical evidence ? What your Copy and Paste forgot to mention and highlight is that :
The common genetics and common ancestor thing is what we call a tree of life (this is the biological term, not biblical). There is only ONE SINGLE tree of life on Earth. That means is only ONE SINGLE GENESIS OF LIFE on Earth.
Earth is 4 billion years old. The earliest evidence of life found is about 3.5 billion years (about 200 million years after the bombardment and Earth has cooled down). That means just as the condition is ready for life, life comes in.
This is very early that life came about, and it has been very long time since. So why is there only 1 genesis of life on earth ? If life is such a common natural phenomena; ie: sprung out naturally in the right environment such as on planet Earth; scientists would have expected multiple, even parallel, trees of life (like any result from a biological or chemical tests). The "right environment" has been there for along time for multiple parallel trees of life to exist.
To compound the the problem; science have not being able to observe or produce the genesis of life - on earth or elsewhere. We can understand how star is born and dies because we can observe the many of them in the night skies at various stages. To understand how life came about, scientist needs to observe a second genesis of life on earth. Until then, scientist cannot say with absolutely certainty how life came about. Again, this is not a statement against science, but of science.
These are major scientific problems and questions. It means, there are questions that have not been answered. We are no where near in making a statement such has 'nobody "created" us'.
"All the creatures on earth, and all the birds that fly with wings, are communities LIKE YOU. We did not leave anything out of this book. To their Lord, all these creatures will be summoned." Al-Quran 6:38
Science is not like what it was 100 years ago Capt Sudhir. Be careful in making dogmatic conclusions. Please catch up.
Sorry Capt Sudhir, you posted some facts but you have absolutely no argument whatsoever against a "creator".
You want to talk about empirical evidence ? What your Copy and Paste forgot to mention and highlight is that :
The common genetics and common ancestor thing is what we call a tree of life (this is the biological term, not biblical). There is only ONE SINGLE tree of life on Earth. That means is only ONE SINGLE GENESIS OF LIFE on Earth.
Earth is 4 billion years old. The earliest evidence of life found is about 3.5 billion years (about 200 million years after the bombardment and Earth has cooled down). That means just as the condition is ready for life, life comes in.
This is very early that life came about, and it has been very long time since. So why is there only 1 genesis of life on earth ? If life is such a common natural phenomena; ie: sprung out naturally in the right environment such as on planet Earth; scientists would have expected multiple, even parallel, trees of life (like any result from a biological or chemical tests). The "right environment" has been there for along time for multiple parallel trees of life to exist.
To compound the the problem; science have not being able to observe or produce the genesis of life - on earth or elsewhere. We can understand how star is born and dies because we can observe the many of them in the night skies at various stages. To understand how life came about, scientist needs to observe a second genesis of life on earth. Until then, scientist cannot say with absolutely certainty how life came about. Again, this is not a statement against science, but of science.
These are major scientific problems and questions. It means, there are questions that have not been answered. We are no where near in making a statement such has 'nobody "created" us'.
"All the creatures on earth, and all the birds that fly with wings, are communities LIKE YOU. We did not leave anything out of this book. To their Lord, all these creatures will be summoned." Al-Quran 6:38
Science is not like what it was 100 years ago Capt Sudhir. Be careful in making dogmatic conclusions. Please catch up.
Adi, I cannot fathom your disagreement to what I stated, you just reinforced what that article, summarised with your input.
Chickens occasionally lay egg which hatch without a male, So what is new?
It is known as Parthenogenesis.
Happens in most species naturally.
In mammals they are induced and they only produce females.
They are all part and parcel of evolution. Interesting though that the original Greek meaning of Parthenogenesis is "Virgin Birth"
:-)
If you want to Believe a Creator exists I am not going to say you cannot. Believe or disbelieve is your prerogative.
All I will say is that there is STILL no evidence other than circular logic, which is no logic at all.
A perfect creation by a Creator would not have to wait billions of years to coming into being.
Then the question will be who created the Creator. The easy and lazy answer will He/She/It is a perfect creation, that doesn't need to be created.(which paradoxically means there is no need for a Creator). If we start believing this, without proof and evidence, it leads to blind faith and dogma.
So really there is no progress going to be made going down that line.
All the advances we see today are because we (as a human specie) chose to not go down this mind numbing path.
It is only when we question everything and in the process of seeking those answers, do we evolve.
The Human specie has become dominant not because of brawn but because of brain. It is because our brain evolved than we are here today. If our forefathers had not evolved our brain, we would have been wiped out as specie.
The way for the brain to evolve is to use it productively. Meaning breaking out of shackles of Dogma.
I honestly do not know if there is a single Creator out there (perhaps I will never know) but you see that to me is more interesting. Now I am a seeker, and I get to experiment in all sorts of mind enhancing experiences of Consciousness.
I am on a journey and enjoying it.
Chickens occasionally lay egg which hatch without a male, So what is new?
It is known as Parthenogenesis.
Happens in most species naturally.
In mammals they are induced and they only produce females.
They are all part and parcel of evolution. Interesting though that the original Greek meaning of Parthenogenesis is "Virgin Birth"
:-)
If you want to Believe a Creator exists I am not going to say you cannot. Believe or disbelieve is your prerogative.
All I will say is that there is STILL no evidence other than circular logic, which is no logic at all.
A perfect creation by a Creator would not have to wait billions of years to coming into being.
Then the question will be who created the Creator. The easy and lazy answer will He/She/It is a perfect creation, that doesn't need to be created.(which paradoxically means there is no need for a Creator). If we start believing this, without proof and evidence, it leads to blind faith and dogma.
So really there is no progress going to be made going down that line.
All the advances we see today are because we (as a human specie) chose to not go down this mind numbing path.
It is only when we question everything and in the process of seeking those answers, do we evolve.
The Human specie has become dominant not because of brawn but because of brain. It is because our brain evolved than we are here today. If our forefathers had not evolved our brain, we would have been wiped out as specie.
The way for the brain to evolve is to use it productively. Meaning breaking out of shackles of Dogma.
I honestly do not know if there is a single Creator out there (perhaps I will never know) but you see that to me is more interesting. Now I am a seeker, and I get to experiment in all sorts of mind enhancing experiences of Consciousness.
I am on a journey and enjoying it.
Capt Sudhir,
I did not disagree with the article you presented. I was complementing the facts provided. I thought that was obvious.
All those genetic similarities and single ancestor facts that the article presented, has simple scientific name - the tree of life.
The article omitted mentioning the scientific problem of (1) why only single occurrence of this tree ever occurred (2) how did it occur.
You are talking how to make coffee, I am talking about where the coffee bean came about.
The Quranic verse SAA quoted was "MIN NAFSIN WAHIDATIN".
The word at the beginning there is "NFS" - which has elementary connotation. It literally means "breath". Eastern cultures associate breath with life force. It also encompass that which has a respiratory system. Every living things has this system. A single cell organism has a respiratory system.
NAFSIN denotes that the subject is female. The female reproduce.
WAHIDATIN means one/single - Like the single tree of life/common ancestor.
NAFSIN WAHIDATIN means that single female life force or female respiration. A single cell reproducing would fit the description. Not Eve skipping in Eden wearing a leaf bikini.
"and created from her her spouse" - Asexual reproduction (which parthenogenesis falls under).
"and from the two men many and women" - Now the word used is RJL and NSAA. Denoting a complex organism of male and female.
SAA just quoted to you a passage of the Quran describing the evolution of life.
And which you posted an article from Nature magazine concurring it.
Which you without understanding, objected.
The female always comes before the male. This is how things are in nature. That's why you have a nipple. You were based on a female template before you became a male.
<< A perfect creation by a Creator would not have to wait billions of years to coming into being. >>
That is "YOUR perception of time". YOUR EXPERIENCE as s human. Do you understand ?
When you ask something like, "oh the created should not wait billions of years...", this is very shallow, ignorant and pretentious. You are basically saying that things in the universe should comply to your whims? jeez... (and i thought you want to expand your consciousness)
What is time for a photon ? It does not have time; the big bang occurred and the universe has already ended.
<< If you want to Believe a Creator exists... >>
Though you might not admit it or realize it - You yourself "chose" to believe. With partial facts presented from an incomplete article, without touching the full story of the single tree problem, you chose to believe that no creator was involved. Sorry dude, we have no scientific evidence how that genesis started - until we see a second genesis; which in 3.5 billion years have not occurred again. You conclusion from this partial evidence is just a belief. You are a "believer".
And there is more than just the single cell tree of life. Many other climatical and atmospheric factors, composition of the planet, distance of the earth to the sun, distance of the earth from the moon... Even the bing bang that produces an asymmetrical quantity of matter to antimatter (something that we cannot reproduce with our particle smashing today and literally would go against the "law of nature" as we know it); comes together to get us to the point we call the creation of life.
Had any of these laundry list of things didn't go as it did, you would not be here expanding you consciousness by skipping the genesis of the tree of life and jumping straight to evolution and parthenogenesis.
These are the signs that Quran ask us to see and understand. This is how we know the Creator is there.
Quran does not ask use to believe by being ignorant and having blind faith.
Quran asked us to see the ayats(signs) that are manifested within us and in the farthest horizons.
In the words of Morpheus : "I do not see coincidence. I see providence. I see purpose."
I did not disagree with the article you presented. I was complementing the facts provided. I thought that was obvious.
All those genetic similarities and single ancestor facts that the article presented, has simple scientific name - the tree of life.
The article omitted mentioning the scientific problem of (1) why only single occurrence of this tree ever occurred (2) how did it occur.
You are talking how to make coffee, I am talking about where the coffee bean came about.
The Quranic verse SAA quoted was "MIN NAFSIN WAHIDATIN".
The word at the beginning there is "NFS" - which has elementary connotation. It literally means "breath". Eastern cultures associate breath with life force. It also encompass that which has a respiratory system. Every living things has this system. A single cell organism has a respiratory system.
NAFSIN denotes that the subject is female. The female reproduce.
WAHIDATIN means one/single - Like the single tree of life/common ancestor.
NAFSIN WAHIDATIN means that single female life force or female respiration. A single cell reproducing would fit the description. Not Eve skipping in Eden wearing a leaf bikini.
"and created from her her spouse" - Asexual reproduction (which parthenogenesis falls under).
"and from the two men many and women" - Now the word used is RJL and NSAA. Denoting a complex organism of male and female.
SAA just quoted to you a passage of the Quran describing the evolution of life.
And which you posted an article from Nature magazine concurring it.
Which you without understanding, objected.
The female always comes before the male. This is how things are in nature. That's why you have a nipple. You were based on a female template before you became a male.
<< A perfect creation by a Creator would not have to wait billions of years to coming into being. >>
That is "YOUR perception of time". YOUR EXPERIENCE as s human. Do you understand ?
When you ask something like, "oh the created should not wait billions of years...", this is very shallow, ignorant and pretentious. You are basically saying that things in the universe should comply to your whims? jeez... (and i thought you want to expand your consciousness)
What is time for a photon ? It does not have time; the big bang occurred and the universe has already ended.
<< If you want to Believe a Creator exists... >>
Though you might not admit it or realize it - You yourself "chose" to believe. With partial facts presented from an incomplete article, without touching the full story of the single tree problem, you chose to believe that no creator was involved. Sorry dude, we have no scientific evidence how that genesis started - until we see a second genesis; which in 3.5 billion years have not occurred again. You conclusion from this partial evidence is just a belief. You are a "believer".
And there is more than just the single cell tree of life. Many other climatical and atmospheric factors, composition of the planet, distance of the earth to the sun, distance of the earth from the moon... Even the bing bang that produces an asymmetrical quantity of matter to antimatter (something that we cannot reproduce with our particle smashing today and literally would go against the "law of nature" as we know it); comes together to get us to the point we call the creation of life.
Had any of these laundry list of things didn't go as it did, you would not be here expanding you consciousness by skipping the genesis of the tree of life and jumping straight to evolution and parthenogenesis.
These are the signs that Quran ask us to see and understand. This is how we know the Creator is there.
Quran does not ask use to believe by being ignorant and having blind faith.
Quran asked us to see the ayats(signs) that are manifested within us and in the farthest horizons.
In the words of Morpheus : "I do not see coincidence. I see providence. I see purpose."
Thank you for your comments. They are always interesting and informative.
Even if the common ancestor of all mammals was a shrew like creature, there must have been a male and female shrew. Which came first the male or female shrew? I am not really seeking an answer. I am asking the question that should be asked.
There is asexual reproduction in nature. This means reproducing without mating. Aka same sex reproduction. Although very rare it does happen. In labs they have made it happen among some fungi. And the direction is female to male.
Surah 4:1 talks about the creation of a Nafs (the Self). Not Nas (human). It does not contradict what the evolutionary biologists say.
Syed Akbar